Teens online - pressure, loneliness and adult silence. Episode 105

Monika Rachtan
Hi Monika Rachtan, I welcome you very warmly to the next episode of the programme. First of all, the patient. In a special episode, because for the first time in this programme we have organised a debate, and in the debate we talk about our children and what they do on social media. This discussion today kicks off a series of mini-debates of mini-debates, which are organised in collaboration with the Institute for Patient Rights and Health Education, and my guests today are Grzegorz Juszczyk, MD, Department of Public Health, Warsaw Medical University. Welcome. Magdalena Skotnicka Chaberek, PhD, child and adolescent psychotherapist, Polish Association for Cognitive and Behavioural Psychotherapy. Good afternoon, and welcome. Also with us is Kamila Kadzidłowska, activist of the movement. Parents for Climate. Hi, welcome. Kamila. With us is Martyna Szaniawska, pharmacist, manager of the open pharmacy at the MSWiA hospital in Warsaw. Hi Martyna, welcome. With us is Paweł Mrozek, founder of Student Action. Hi, welcome. With us is Ms Maria Gałczyk Wojciechowska, senior specialist in the Department for Mental Health at the Office of the Patient Ombudsman. Good morning, and welcome. In the previous part, we came to some conclusions, which is that we established that social media is present with us every day nowadays and that we need it, but we need to develop some solutions to better manage, because not to control social media, to better manage it, so in our further discussion we will talk about that. Well, just what does social media bring us? In the previous section we established that on social media we can, for example, find out what medicines we need to buy to grow faster. This could be an issue that affects our children who have decided to live healthy and attend the gym. Well. And could the platform for other addictions also just be social media? Could it be where children acquire substances or acquire something else to which they are addicted? For example, they can get free pornography. Would you consider social media to be such a place, and perhaps one of you would like to speak up?

Kamila Kadzidłowska
I have the impression that, for many people, social media are a way of filling in some kind of lack, very often a way of ensuring some kind of deficit or lack of contact with other people, or a deficit, sometimes, of information or a sense of presence. In my opinion, this is very often also an illusion of filling this deficit, an illusion which, when we become completely detached from the physical, real world. Well, perhaps because we are, we are biological beings, it can and very often does lead to more serious problems, but let's also remember that for some, social media are simply the only window onto the world. Right? So here again, a huge plea to the regulators of the digital world to make these social media, however, a safe space, especially for children.

Monika Rachtan
Who do you think should be this regulator? Should the companies that provide us with social media regulate themselves, put some regulation in place. But should policymakers sit at that table? Representatives from different backgrounds of adults, children, different organisations should sit down.

Kamila Kadzidłowska
All eyes are now on Australia, which has introduced a ban on social media for children and young people under 16. It seems to me that this ban will not come into force until the autumn and we will see how it is respected in practice and what good it will do. And that is where it happened because of the intervention of politicians and legislators. It didn't happen by itself, because the fact that social media is such an immeasurable and uncontrollable ocean in virtually no way brings huge profits. The big techies and the bigtechies themselves will not give up these enormous profits. What is needed here, in the case of Poland, is both a Polish national legislator and the European Commission.

Monika Rachtan
Kamila, but still going back to this Australia, because I'd like to ask you if maybe you know how the process was, Because we've already stated together today that you can't shut down social media and whether we're going to turn it off to 16 year olds. It seems to me that these are such intelligent people who can find a gateway and they will use these social media. And now you can be a radical, you can shut down social media, say we're shutting it down, we're not. But that's not a good solution because you've just got to have a seat at the table. And what was it like in this Australia? Did they sit down and just talk to each other?

Kamila Kadzidłowska
They debated for a long time, as far as I know, and these were social debates, I would say, similar to citizens' panels, involving various actors, politicians, parents, civil servants and, of course, representatives of big tech, so. And I hope that young people were also included. It also seems to me that this is also such an attempt and this ban will be combined, of course, with monitoring of how this ban actually affects the young generation and. Well, and it has to be checked whether this is the way to go. If it's not, I don't think Australia plans to stay with it forever either. Also, this is some sort of attempt to take action.

Paweł Mrozek
It is certainly worth taking a close look at Australia to see how things will develop there, but also, as such a discussion has already arisen in the current presidential campaign, among other things, about restricting either telephones or social media, it is worthwhile and really necessary to make sure that all parties to a given conflict are actually invited, as it has been a conflict in the public space for a long time. Whether or not these social media should be available. Young people, decision-makers, experts and representatives of various institutions should sit at such a round table and express their opinions on these issues, without forgetting that bans do not always work if they are imposed. I can assure you, young people know how to get around this, and they know how to get around it in all sorts of different ways. Let us also remember, because we have not yet spoken out so strongly today. The issue of hate speech, of hegemony on the internet, on social media, and this is a very, very important issue. Various bills have recently been debated in the Sejm and also in the Senate, where there have been discussions on how to counteract precisely this hate speech. Unfortunately, there is still no specific key to this. How can it be stopped? That is why we are currently relying on social campaigns that we, as young people, and not only young people, but also other non-governmental organisations, create, where we just reach out to these young people, we say. We speak to people they like. People who are also active on these social media say that hate speech is bad, and at the same time, for some people, perhaps I can use my life example to say that every day, during various social activities, there is a lot of hate speech, because let us remember to distinguish between criticism, constructive criticism, and hate speech towards young people, social activists. Many times such hate speech is used, it's just that we are also already a bit used to it and we don't give in to these words. On the other hand, there are young people who do not act as resiliently as some young people and they take every word to themselves, they really analyse these words very strongly, and let's remember words can also kill a person.

Monika Rachtan
But it's what you said, that we all experience the heebie-jeebies on the internet, because yes Martina as a pharmacist is probably a 'sprite'.

Martyna Szaniawska
Yes, I support the farm, I'm a very pro vaccination person. So yes, hate speech is a daily occurrence when it comes to this work. And I think the younger a person is, the more sensitive they are to it.

Monika Rachtan
That is what I wanted to ask. Martyna how does it affect you? Because, you know, you finished a lot of studies, you studied a lot to be able to be a pharmacist and to be able to help people. And that was probably your goal at the beginning, that you said this is a job that just brings help. And how does that kind of heckling affect you, an adult, an educated person who can handle, I assume, all sorts of difficult situations. Do you have that sometimes you just feel sadness and anger here?

Martyna Szaniawska
Yes, I'm also human and I also have those moments when there is an accumulation of various external and internal factors at work, at home. And where the hate is still such a drop in the jug. And then one also wonders if what one is doing makes sense, that why am I fighting with someone like this? I have taken care of myself, of my loved ones. Do I really need the nerves and the stress that is getting to me now? I have moments like that too, but somewhere it lasts a while and you always have to live your life in such a way that at the end of the evening you can look yourself in the face and say you did a good job. And what was paramount for me was to help some person, to make that good resound, to make him healthy, to make him self-sufficient, to make him not need care, because everything is good as long as it is good. And vaccination is exactly such a topic, when we don't appreciate it until we get sick with a particular disease entity and we say that the tick vaccination doesn't affect us. But until we have paralysis and we are already dependent and then it already affects us, not just us, but another 10 people to whom they have some kind of obligation towards us. So I often see crying afterwards. I very often see crying in the pharmacist's office, where people come and say that someone is in a drug coma and they are not allowed to visit because they are not vaccinated for anything. Yes, and these situations do happen. Then they want to be vaccinated. But if someone is in that coma for quite a long time, there is no good information. We can support with words, but we know and also it is nothing good awaits such a person. So I think I always try to divide people, if I talk to them, into those who are active, who understand this medical base or who are simply looking for this medical information, this proven information, and those who have some doubts. But these doubts are such that with one sentence from any medical professional we are able to change it. I don't know, I'm going to camp, should I now or later? Yes, please take it now. Yes, please take precautions, have this in your first aid kit. This is one explanation that costs us nothing except to share from knowledge. There is a section of people who already have big doubts about their conduct in general. And now we either make sure that they ask us medics about it, or we medics implement it for them and simply make them aware of it, or this person will ask a neighbour, ask the postman, or the internet and then make that decision. And here the number of these people is, I think, about 30-40% alone, the number of those who are heathen is less. And as I sometimes calculate my own statistics, which are smaller, but my own, it is about 10%, while they have one advantage over those 90%, for whom it is always worth fighting, that they shout the loudest, they do it the loudest, they touch it so vividly. And that's the worst thing, that we common sense people, who are able to discuss, are able to take this criticism, but a constructive one, and get something out of it. We keep our voices down a bit, and it is good that this panel has been created so that we can counteract those who can really do a lot of bad things in word and deed, but they are more effective.

Monika Rachtan
Martina if you, a strong woman, are affected in such a way by hegemony on the internet, or by hegemony simply in your daily work, then Doctor, what happens to a child when they experience such hegemony?

Magdalena Skotnicka-Chaberek
Above all, when we are children. We usually care about being perceived well by our environment. From a certain point onwards, the role of the adult diminishes and that of the group increases. The more the group rejects us, the more they criticise us, the harder it is to build a valuable self. But again, we come back to that piece earlier, that a person starts much earlier, before we use that network. And from my perspective, the safest thing to do, apart from introducing regulations, would be to teach the other person to say no. To teach the opposition to us adults. To teach that we respect him as a human being, as a child. To teach him the right behaviour towards strangers. Because the web brings in a lot of bad things from pornography to the possibility of selling yourself, your belongings, sex trafficking in every way we can imagine. But social media can also save lives. When colleagues and peers notice that something is going wrong and act very quickly, they can pick up, if children know what is going on, they can pick up someone who is soliciting them for sexual activities and act very efficiently. It's a matter of us having to work on giving them skills and giving them the ability to cope, in addition to this work of protecting everyone. Because if we have a submissive child who is sensitive to the judgement of an adult, because we will often say to him "you're doing it wrong again, correct, you're stupid". Well we are teaching him that he has to try all the time in order to be somebody. And if we say "You can make mistakes. Everyone learns. You did a stupid thing unique, it happens sometimes." And we will be ready that when a child tells us no, we don't say "well I'm an adult, I know better". We just sit down and talk, because sometimes I know better. If you want to climb out of a sixth-floor window by making yourself a ladder out of sheets, maybe I won't let you do that, because it's not common sense after all. But maybe if you say that you would rather sit with your friends that night, because there is a reason, then maybe he will look at it differently. I have this situation in my mind where my child had to face the serious loss of a pet he loved very much and I was walking home from the vet with this thought God, how lonely he must feel, even though he's sitting with his dad because it's late And I found my child sitting at the computer. But no one was playing anything and I said "What are you doing?" And in the background I heard "We're here, we're talking to him, we're going to sit with him today as long as he needs". They couldn't come, it was too late. No parent would let their mates go somewhere at 11pm at the age of 12, but they could connect with him and he wasn't alone. So I'm thinking to myself that it's also a bit up to us adults to shape that reality from us adults. Because I have these two questions. Do we know what search engine our child is using? Because I imagine that in some of the search engines it's the governments that will track whether a teenager is using social media. But there are some search engines, not to hint to the young ones, where if they connect, nobody will find it. And I think they know that better than we do. And the other thing is let's see what hate speech looks like in the public space.

Kamila Kadzidłowska
Please.

Monika Rachtan
Ms Kamila, please go ahead.

Grzegorz Juszczyk
As on TV, the editor points out.

Kamila Kadzidłowska
Exactly, this is a very good question. Nomen omen, is there a climate for our children to be resistant to addictions? Is there a climate for this in their environment, their family, their surroundings, that is, have we managed to build a bond with our child?

Monika Rachtan
This is very important, because it is all up to us. What Kamila and I talk about repeatedly, the way schools are run, the way shops are run, the relationship with the child at home is all built by us and de facto we are responsible for it. And I have this feeling that our generation was the first generation to come into contact with social media. And to us, as we are now trying to work things out, we already know that something is good, something is bad. We were just given 'our-web' we were given, 'our-web', where we were supposed to meet our pals from primary school and see what they were up to there. And none of us had any idea which way it would go. It was just some innocent, innocuous photography, something to keep the relationship going, something that was wrapped up for us in a beautiful package. And unfortunately today there are good and bad sides to it. Professor. Would you like to say something, Professor?

Grzegorz Juszczyk
Yes, I wanted to try and bring these different threads together. I have this perspective. Well, social media is a bit like an ocean. We don't really have a say in what happens on that ocean. And as we were talking about this lack of an instruction manual, for me it's a lack of operating this boat that I have to build for myself in order to go out into the wide ocean. And now, if I'm doing that in a canoe, then as Mr Paul just said sorry, Mr Paul, we're going to collide with this heckling, we're going to collide with this serious storm and this canoe is going to tip over for us. If we have this education, too, which we have talked about, we prepare ourselves somehow for what will happen to us there, we build this individual resilience, well then we can enter this world more easily. And it seems to me that this is what we, young people, are missing most of all. In particular, when we enter this world, we are not fully aware of what the consequences will be and what can happen there. If we know, well, then we can build those skills that will help us deal with the hate. I have an exercise that I use that helps a little bit in dealing with this hegemony. Maybe it's already for students, so they have some competence, but I ask them to write down on a piece of paper the people whose opinion they care about. There are usually parents, friends, buddies, colleagues, such close acquaintances. And then we sum it up like this. Listen, then ask for opinions on their actions, on the behaviour of these people. And listen to those opinions. Others can express themselves in any way they wish. It is up to you to decide whether that opinion is valid or invalid for you. I agree that words hurt, words kill. But with time, we can build ourselves such a shell, encase this ship with cushions, and then it is just easier, but without this awareness that entering this rough ocean, we may encounter solid storms. Well we have to reckon that this humble boat of ours is just going to capsize, So we control that environment and I absolutely stress again the theme of social media control. Maybe we'll see the kind of black boxes with black text on a white background like on cigarette packets, that beware using social media can put you at risk of this and that if you're under 16. In the context of Australian solutions.

Monika Rachtan
I think this doesn't just apply to 16-year-olds, it applies to us too.

Grzegorz Juszczyk
But it is simply an industry. A business that is governed by its own laws and needs to be controlled. So, in the last sentence, I would not demonise these bans so much. They are needed because they send a clear message that we as a society have agreed, through discussion, that we do not allow certain behaviour. Well, we are not in a position to control every driver whether they are speeding or not. We control it randomly, but that is what we have agreed. So if we agree in such a way that we ban, for example, disposable cigarettes, and I don't even want to open this thread, because I think it is a nightmare failure that it is so easy to access nicotine-containing products.

Monika Rachtan
And again on the internet.

Grzegorz Juszczyk
And also on the Internet. If we send out this signal that something is forbidden, that we shouldn't do certain things, you know, there will be people who will cross this barrier, but for some people who have already built themselves such a very structured ethical structure, for example, well, this will already be information. You can see that something is not working there as it should. There are some dangers there, I'll just refrain. So it's not just about this kind of punishment, it's about this social signal. Listen, this is how we agree, this is what we wouldn't want to do.

Monika Rachtan
We've been talking a lot about the Round Table and I'm wondering, because I do go around on social media, in the health area. Well that's just where I am every day and I read all this stuff and I come across all sorts of fake news and the very charlatans that Maria mentioned. And there's a lot of that on the internet. And I think that just as there was a statement made here, I think Paul said, that hate mail can kill. I also believe that information on the Internet concerning our health can kill, can cause death, and we do not realise this very often. And now, Maria, here, as far as the Patient Ombudsman is concerned, do you. Are you guys talking to the Ministry of Digitalisation, are you talking to the Ministry of Health? Because when it comes to access to pharmaceuticals, well that's one thing, but access to such information that a particular data, action for example does not cause cancer. Yes, only that is also dangerous information if it obviously causes it. Let us suppose that information appears on the Internet that disposable cigarettes, which the professor mentioned, are safe and do not cause cancer, which is obviously not true.

Maria Galczyk-Wojciechowska
Well, that's exactly it. And here lies the main problem, that these fake news are everywhere. It is something that has got completely out of control, they are widely available generally everywhere on the Internet, and already those that concern the sphere of health, medicine, health care, are particularly dangerous, because we adults, and especially children, young people, who read it. It's difficult for us, sometimes adults, to look at it in that way, very reflective, it's impossible, it can't be like that. And the child takes it that way I suppose. Yes, I'm assuming that the child in terms of the development of the age that they are, they don't take it in the way that we adults, who ourselves have a problem with it. So for them, let's say it's knowledge that they've got and they're going to and they're going to claim that that's the truth. And that can very negatively result in, I don't know, for example, rejecting a really effective treatment method because we read on the web that this and that gentleman said that, for example, I don't know, cancer can be cured by, I don't know, yoga or, I don't know, suppose, I don't know, a dietary supplement. Yes, this is very dangerous, because this is not only endangering our health, but our life. It can end in death. So this is a very, serious problem.

Monika Rachtan
I would still just like to ask the younger generation, are you guys able to just, Do you feel ready to verify such information? Does anyone teach you at school that you have to look for the source of the information, that, check if this author exists, that, check if such a university actually functions, which is signed under the given information. Of course, I'm going to ask more about health, because that's my area of expertise, and that's where I'm most interested in fighting this fake news, but it also appears in various spheres, in politics, when it comes to climate-related information. Does anyone teach you how to verify this?

Paweł Mrozek
Absolutely not. In the sense that there is so much disinformation, so much fake news And even now we are talking to each other here and for sure about 2 hours of material will come out of this. Well, and even from those 2 hours of material there are tools that are able to produce, so to speak, what I didn't say, and it will be shown in a video, for example, with the help of artificial intelligence, that someone said that. So certainly in the current world in this day and age, you have to be careful of everything that is, that comes out. On social media. Whereas this education is not there. Nobody is telling us that we should verify everything several times. Of course, there are young people who are very inquisitive, some of whom have the potential to be future investigative journalists, but there are also people who will believe what they see and continue in that direction. We should also remember that apart from disinformation, disinformation is also created many times by recognisable people, who are also watched by young people in various places. And in addition to this disinformation, which is also spread by such people, let us remember that an example is also being set from above. So, however, what they show at the top there, I mean people we watch, people we know, possibly like, respect. Well, if someone at the top says so and not otherwise, then many young people will just believe those words. This is why I appeal to adults, if they want to deal with us, young people, children, even to limit some things for us, then they should also start with themselves, so that in public places, even in public debates, in the Sejm, the Senate, anywhere, where very important and significant issues are raised, we expect, first of all, a culture of dialogue, not to teach hate speech, but also to verify this disinformation, because it would take a long time to tell how many politicians have already fallen for this disinformation, and the world continues to follow this example.

Monika Rachtan
I will give the floor to the doctor in a moment, but I will also talk about one very important thing that I talked about in the last episode of my programme How was this programme created? The Patient First programme was originally going to be a podcast. I didn't conceive of it as a podcast in the way we understood podcasting 2 years ago. That is, we have audio and we listen to the voice of two people. And I couldn't accept journalistically that there shouldn't be a video, because I thought to myself how my viewer, Mr Piotr Kowalski, who lives in Poznań, will know what kind of voice Professor Juszczyk has. If I say that there sits this professor, then I am journalistically responsible for having said that. But de facto no one can verify that the professor was actually my guest. When we have the video, well, we are already able to look for this person, check his image and, as it were, refer to whether this is really the expert. And now look, dear readers, how often on Instagram you listen to people who call themselves a doctor of dietetics. And he's given the title Dr Tomasz Nowak, and that's actually a doctor of dietetics, not a doctor. And we fall for it because we don't verify this information. They are available. The Supreme Chamber of Physicians provides such information, but who in the public knows that they can check the number of a doctor's licence to practice? This is information that is de facto in our bubble, in which we work, we rotate, it is super accessible. And, of course, Martyna knows that you check a doctor's licence number.

Martyna Szaniawska
Yes, I know, but very often I have been sent just some sort of roll call from celebrities that I am advertising such and such a supplement, and should I take it or not? Is it really gone? No more acne? No more after one packet of this? And these people worst so in the legal world can do it. Well, and we medics with PWZet, which can be verified, absolutely cannot go to such practices at all. And sometimes someone sends such information or asks why don't you do something like that? Take us tell us the 3 best products for this and some medicines for that and such best for that I say it doesn't work like that. We are not allowed to advertise medicines and in our country, the Main Pharmaceutical Inspectorate or the Chamber is very resilient and effective in terms of the fact that people who, well, hold this medical profession, cannot advertise, cannot advertise these dietary supplements, these medicines, giving trade names only on the basis of this medical knowledge. Again, it is very difficult for such people. Besides, we rarely know all these preparations by their active ingredients, and it is very difficult for a normal person to navigate in this. I really understand that for them it is a thicket that is hard to get through, and such brands that are advertised and they hear somewhere, they already know what they are talking about. For such a person, a social media user.

Monika Rachtan
The scary thing is that a greater authority is an influencer than a medical professional. Me, I'm going back to the doctor because I promised to cast my vote.

Magdalena Skotnicka-Chaberek
Because I think to myself all the time that we are talking about us adults. How difficult it is for us young people. But what has already been said Children in general look at reality differently. For children, words are facts. Thoughts are facts. So how easily they fall to me. How many children knew the songs? I won't use pharmaceutical products they sang to themselves because, for example, a catchy commercial with a great song. And a child walked and sang along. It will remember the preparation forever, and whether it's needed or not, it associates it with something nice, pleasant to have in its hand. And it's a bit like that, that indeed, in order to sail, we need to create things. It's just that children need dry docks, wet docks and only then sailing somewhere further afield, because that's an age group that won't defend itself in any way, because it doesn't have that brain tool. Because when we start teaching young children to recognise content, there are such tools. We're the ones who have to repeat it many times later, because by the time a child has time to be critical to the fact that what they have in their head is not necessarily fact, they're already a teenager. And I think that's the kind of piece that is our responsibility simply.

Maria Galczyk-Wojciechowska
Doctor, I just wanted to add generally, it seems to me that we are leaving out pre-school children. We keep saying well primary school, teenagers, high school and so on, but no one is talking about the fact that these children need to be educated from an early age. I am not talking about nursery school, because these children are too young, but nursery school are very bright, intelligent children who absorb like a sponge, and teaching them content which is, of course, adapted to their age is, in my opinion, really a very good direction to take these children, because, you know, if we teach them, educate them, we attach parents to it, we attach specific classes to it, on specific topics, such as assertiveness, setting boundaries. Children really have a problem with that. I'm a mum, and I didn't know that such problems can occur at pre-school age, where there really is already a lot of bullying behaviour, so informing parents about it, meeting with them, meetings where such information should be passed on, and educating these children from a very young age really seems to me to have an effect at an older age, because these children will be taught every year that this is wrong, and I think that this will really become permanent for them.

Magdalena Skotnicka-Chaberek
But we do have campaigns available concerning, for example, online hate speech. I don't know if I can use the name, but there's a social campaign called 'Don't dance with the wolves' about news and information. It's cartoons about different inflammatory situations online, and it's someone stripping in front of a webcam. And it's the hate speech that's not popular, it's not promoted, it hasn't found its way into the programmes.

Monika Rachtan
I think it's just a matter of the decision-makers in general that they don't push such campaigns, however, I won't say in the language of social media, that there isn't someone who wants to take care of this campaign so that it reaches a wider audience, a wider audience. Kamila But you still wanted to speak? Yes.

Kamila Kadzidłowska
As you mentioned here, of course this education should already start at pre-school age, but it's insanely important that it's not education, it's children, just like we have, for example, environmental education served in schools, kindergartens by corporations who, for example, produce I don't even want to say tonnes per second of rubbish and educate children about the fact that you can then sort that rubbish. You can go to the shop, buy a lot of products and then we don't worry about the planet. The planet will smile because you sort the waste, so that's not the kind of education we're talking about. Especially as children then leave kindergarten and school severely frustrated because it's just beyond them. So is the education on healthy eating served in schools, kindergartens. But while children at home don't have access to healthy products, and children often wonder where I'm supposed to get these products from, if mummy and daddy don't buy them, and mummy and daddy say leave me alone, I can't find these things at the discount store, I don't have time to cook, So this kind of education creates a lot of frustration in children. This education has to go hand in hand with the education of the parents. And paradoxically, unfortunately, these bans help with that. Because it's like with smoking cigarettes, when I was born in the 80s and even in the 90s I remember that even in the 2000s adults smoked in front of children and had no problem with it at all. Yes, it was condoned and people said oh there, oh there, he didn't smoke and he died of cancer anyway. What they didn't know was that the issue of air pollution also had a big impact on that. The point is that even such bans, restrictions placed on bigtech in terms of digital hygiene on and access for children are a signal to parents to look at something differently, something that, like cigarettes or alcohol used to be promoted in marketing, sold as something that makes us feel better and is super cool for everyday life.

Monika Rachtan
So again, this attentiveness that we've been talking about, that it kind of stimulates us adults to start looking at our lives. I'm going to give the floor to the Professor on each point, because we have very little time left, and I can see that a heated discussion is going on.

Grzegorz Juszczyk
Very briefly more about this influence of influencers. It's very important that they hone their skills in simply talking about complex issues.

Monika Rachtan
It's just like in this programme, just like in this programme.

Grzegorz Juszczyk
Experts spend a great deal of time just unravelling these difficult issues, and then someone tries to summarise it synthetically. We have this joke in academia. I don't even know if I can tell the story.

Monika Rachtan
But of course, we agree.

Grzegorz Juszczyk
Yes, two physics professors meet over a salad at a party and one says to the other. You know, I don't think I quite understand this theory of relativity. To which the other professor says don't worry, I'll explain it all to you in a minute, and the other one replies Well, I can't explain it. And I think this reflects well on various influencers. They explain things nicely, but we are not entirely convinced that they understand these complex issues.

Monika Rachtan
Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to use my watch and I would like to give you all 30 seconds to make an appeal, perhaps an attempt to solve this social media problem. What do we need today, what do we expect? And I'm going to start with the youngest from Paul, because it's the children, our children we're talking about today, so it's time to start. You have 30 seconds. Please make a juicy statement.

Paweł Mrozek
Sure, then maybe I'll look at the one. If it's young people here, if it's any young people who are watching us, well, first of all, use these social media responsibly, if it's any decision-makers who are listening to us. Finally, start education, real education from the ground up, so that the younger generation grows up and learns how to use things. And set a good example for young people, because what you are doing at the moment, unfortunately, is not a good example.

Monika Rachtan
Thank you very much. Mrs Mario, please take the floor.

Maria Galczyk-Wojciechowska
I think that we should, above all, draw attention to the fact that the mental health and safety of our youngest - that is, of children and young people - should be such a fundamental criterion for us to ensure that this can be rebuilt all the time, to ensure that it is so, because these are the people who are creating, and who will be creating, our adult society in a short while. So I would call for this, for systemic solutions to emerge that involve all of us, society, ministries, NGOs too. We as parents will be invited, also teachers, because the Ministry of Education I think will also play a major role here and these solutions will be found.

Monika Rachtan
Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Another 30 seconds, Maybe this time Martyn we'll ask you to make an appeal.

Martyna Szaniawska
I have an appeal to young people to live their lives as they feel them, as emotional as they are, and not to change and alter it with substitutes that are available to them at their fingertips. Is it possible to live without all these stimulants? I have never had a cigarette in my hand in my life and I have never smoked one in my life. And I am alive. And it is possible to do it with all the other things around us.

Monika Rachtan
Thank you very much, Professor.

Grzegorz Juszczyk
This is an appeal to the young. Remember that social media is a shop where a lot of things want to sell you, so pay attention to who, how and what they are selling. Just use it consciously. And to the politicians, make sure that the younger generation, when you need their help in your old age, doesn't deal with social media, but with you and your loved ones.

Monika Rachtan
Kamila

Kamila Kadzidłowska
I have an appeal to parents and to decision-makers. Let us do everything we can to create a climate in which children can grow up without addictions. To do this, let's take care of relationships from the first months of life. Let's be very assertive for the business of making sure that kids have at their fingertips now all the things that make them addicted. And I mean other stimulants besides social media. So legislators should have these topics on their radar and interdepartmentally create a welcoming space for children to develop healthily not only at home, but also at school and in the so-called backyard.

Monika Rachtan
Thank you very much. Doctor.

Magdalena Skotnicka-Chaberek
I would like to say one thing. If someone wants to be a great kid, a cool parent, they don't have to deal with everything and they don't have to deal with it alone. When you need to, look for a specialist using evidence-based tools and ask for help.

Monika Rachtan
Thank you very much for this summary.

Kamila Kadzidłowska
Iceland. I do not know if you have heard about the huge problem with children and young people being addicted to alcohol and various drugs that Iceland had in the 1990s. I think it was also the 1980s. A huge problem It was Iceland that dealt with it. It's obviously a tremendous amount of adult solidarity, interdepartmental solidarity and a bet on just creating a space. I mean the kind of outdoor space where young people can play sports, develop artistically, musically, be socially active. What is more, ensuring that the legislation on the availability of stimulants is, of course, very restrictive. All of this has resulted in Iceland now being cited as an example of such a country that has successfully fought back.

Maria Galczyk-Wojciechowska
So it is simply organising alternatives?

Kamila Kadzidłowska
Yes.

Monika Rachtan
Thank you very much for your vote. Thank you very much for our debate today. Ladies and gentlemen, we have opened our series of mini-forums that we will be organising for you every few months, and in February we will be inviting you to the Patients' Organisations Forum, which is organised annually by the Institute for Patients' Rights and Health Education. My dears, it turns out that social media is not the only addiction that afflicts our children. These addictions can be many and, in fact, it is mostly up to us to decide what our lives and those of our children will be like, both online and in real life. So let's look at each other with care, with sensitivity, and make sure that we all have a good climate. This was the programme 'Patient First'. An exceptional edition, a mini-debate, My guests Professor Grzegorz Juszczyk, Dr Magdalena Skotnicka, Haberek, Kamila Kadzidłowska, Martyna Szaniawska, Paweł Mrozek and Mrs Maria Gałczyk Wojciechowska. My name is Monika Rachtan, and you can find my programme on social media. Thank you very much.